@emsenn yeah uhh I can't get past the paywall either but I resemble that description.

@starkatt @emsenn

archive.today / archive.is / archive.vn seems to have a full copy: archive.vn/KBXLl

There's also the "Bypass Paywalls" extension for Firefox, which sometimes works.

@woozle @starkatt

I feel like Bob here is how a lot of people are preparing for a Collapse they now recognize is probably coming.


And it's so endearing :D

Better to do as katt and me, fail early and often

@emsenn @woozle @starkatt I wonder how much of these articles is people who come up with article pitches trying to make things out to be failures that really aren't... The tomatoes grew at all is a success! It's like when the trend was to diss gardens as 'well you'll never get all your calories from that' as if that had somehow ever been the point? Skills take time to develop. So I wonder, what's the agenda behind the dissing? Or is it just people trying to cope by finding a target for their sourness?

@feonixrift @emsenn @starkatt

I am like Bob in being pretty much utterly unprepared to grow my own food.

I am unlike Bob in at least being well aware of this, and in the early stages of working out connections with mutual-aid microcivilization* projects that will at least have the knowledge of how to do it, on a very practical level.

...while also having to devote 95% of my time towards maintaining the increasingly empty shell of a "normal" middle-class existence. (Life in the 2020s)

*"civilization" as I define it, which has very little overlap with "New York, wars, and so on".

@emsenn @feonixrift @starkatt

...and for increasingly few, yeah. I should have put a ™ after that phrase.

@woozle I don't know if that makes it better? It feels like people who talk about Normal, even with mockery or loathing, often don't make consideration that folk in the conversation might have never been within the Norm.

Like, hearing "empty shell of normal middle class existence == life" is... not pleasant, in a very base way. @feonixrift @starkatt

@woozle People get really mad if I imply touching dirt is part of human life, because I shouldn't just assume that, what about people who dislike dirt, or have allergies, or can't bend down to it, or, or...

But there's no equivalent touchiness for implying things like earning an income or having identification paperwork.

When those things are way less a default part of Life than touching dirt!

And, if it alienates me, who lives so adjacent to Incomed Identified Life, it's probably more alienating to others. @feonixrift @starkatt


You & I have a lot to talk about, and (if it wasn't already obvious) a lot of views in common.^.^

H&I haz privilege, and I won't deny it -- even though we're surrounded by people who are (to all indications) far more privileged. They can afford to maintain their houses, pay people to maintain their yards (while we're financial-metaphorically living in our parents' basements, which is a large chunk of the aforementioned privilege)...

...and I was mainly mocking the pretense of "normal", not trying to claim that ("normal") suburban life is inherently terrible because it's hollow or something. It has its issues, but everyone deserves that level of comfort regardless of how well they "perform". Which brings me to...

Strong agree about "earning an income" and "having identification paperwork". I could go on a rant. We have many friends (especially online) who feel even less adequate to those tasks than we do. I've actually earned a living (or better) income on several occasions, and am half-heartedly hoping to do it again -- but the process of getting a job now is... just so much more full of BS than it was even 10-20 years ago (I was last full-time employed in 2001) that I honestly don't know if I can execute the necessary performance art. It was bad enough 20 years ago.

@feonixrift @starkatt

@woozle I'll have to reply to this later because the ceiling is pouring water and I have to solve it with ingenuity and scrap but it still feels like you're going "Yes, we (normal folk) should make sure to acknowledge other ways of living."

But then you're still casting your way of living as the destination of other life ways, jumping from "we need to include not having an income" to "let's put not earning an income on the spectrum of earning an income," by comparing "not able to earn income" with "earning a low income".

There are people who don't earn income and would decline the opportunity: their way of life does not involve it. Same for identification papers.

It's myopic to cast those folk in the same lot as "privileged but low income"

@feonixrift @starkatt

@woozle Like our ways of talking should make it eminently clear there is a place in the conversation for people without any money, or /even the concept of money/.

Otherwise we're excluding so many ways of thinking, we can't even recognize it.

Even in this thread, let's examine the oddity: here I am, without ID and without money, saying "I think a better litmus test for proving a person's personness is probably their connection to dirt,"

and you /continue/ to center privilege and wealth as measures of normalcy! To criticise it, sure, but from my perspective that's a bit like coming play soccer with me and spending the whole time on your phone on the Star Trek forums. You're here, sure, but are you really... engaged in the same thing I am?

It's fine if not, but then: let's acknowledge that you're assuming I'll play along with what you're engaged in, and acknowledge there wasn't even a consideration for really engaging in what I'm doing, except to relate it back to Trek.

@feonixrift @starkatt


I may have some internalized stuff that still needs to be expunged.

Seems kind of inevitable, actually, that this would happen. I was raised very suburban, very career-oriented.

I suspect it's mostly me not communicating very well, tho.

You're busy, so I won't ramble on further; hopefully we can sort it all out on Saturday.

@feonixrift @starkatt

@woozle For what it's worth, I have conversations like this a lot, and probably 9 out of ten the person goes, early on, "I'm probably not communicating well," but the almost always end with an understanding that they were representing kyriarchal views acquired through cultural inundation which hadn't yet had their reckoning against other views.

that is, don't assume it's bad communication: leave room for - and I'd say /assume/ that - the issue is bad ideas. @feonixrift @starkatt


Maybe this will clarify? -- When I say "deserves", I mean to imply "to whatever extent it's wanted"; when I say "level of comfort", I mean "a quality of life that is comparable, by the individual's own evaluation and without necessarily including any of the same details".

I've overcome a lot of bad ideas just in the past few months, and more than that in the past 5-10 years; looking forward to overcoming more.

@feonixrift @starkatt


@woozle Right: but then the conversation starts with and is centered around the acquisition of those things through participation in privilege.

How different would conversations, and thinking, be if mentions of such Collaboration were swept under the rug, the same way a person can have a thousand conversations about what to do for dinner without ever thinking about the people starving downtown?

It's great to make allowance for other folk to bring up other ways of doing things, but without the support of the miasma of the kyriarchy, that's asking such an investment: to bring the question "what should we do for dinner?" to an Indigenous perspective requires /hours/ of conversation, often quite painful for people in the conversation: the settler-folk because their basic values are being challenged, and the Indigenous folk because well, the exact same thing, lol.

Going back, phrases like, ""normal" middle-class existence. (Life in the 2020s)" only help entrench one way of asking about dinner, and erase the others entirely.

It doesn't matter how ironic or critical it is: it's still centering the kyriarchal way of being.

If I go around saying "no one should kick puppies!" it is a reasonable inference that folk are kicking puppies, and it begs the question why.

Now there's this question of "is it alright to kick puppies" that I've introduced by criticizing puppy-kicking - I mean, hell, I'm keeping the notion of puppy-kicking alive!

Better to just... not kick puppies and build a culture where it doesn't occur to folk to kick puppies.

Better, that is, to hold conversations where it doesn't occur to folk to view "use privilege" as a solution or response to... anything.

@feonixrift @starkatt

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Tortoise Mountain Natives Do Not Like English Ivy

It is time to stop Ecological and economic genocide upon people of color. Tortoise Mountain and Turtle Island natives are the original Ecosteaders. Long before European and other settlers with delusions about government-subsidized Farmworld and Cafeworld development in "blocks" of colonialist infrastructure, Native Land Before Invasion was organic. And there never were opportunities or roles for a white male "Chief" Executive Officer. Fix the problems plaguing Europe before testing your ideas here.